23:07 MrSergio: alright, this is a good time to check how you usually map
23:07 MrSergio: what is the first thing you do when you get a song and you want to map it?
23:07 MrSergio: well, timing and setting up aside
23:08 Mentee: i listen through it
23:08 Mentee: and i bookmark the sections
23:08 MrSergio: umh, good
23:08 Mentee: then i decide how im gonna map it
23:08 Mentee: if there's a lead that strong enough, i'll set focus to that lead
23:08 Mentee: which i think i did for this map
23:09 MrSergio: yeah, I can see that
23:09 Mentee: if i wanna make a theme
23:09 Mentee: usually before i map i'll think of some gimmick
23:09 Mentee: like with espy i knew what i wanted to do
23:09 Mentee: the song was weird enough that i could totally whip something weird up too
23:10 MrSergio: that's a good step, but instead of just imagining, try putting something down on "paper"(in this case, on the map)
23:10 Mentee: ah
23:10 MrSergio: I rarely do so, but I usually make a lot of tests, which is probably the same
23:10 Mentee: so actually try the gimmick
23:10 MrSergio: yep
23:10 MrSergio: that's for two reasons:
23:10 MrSergio: you get to see better whether it really works or not
23:10 MrSergio: you get a first reference to how you want your patterns
23:11 MrSergio: and I mean not only the one you're mapping, but also the other ones, since by consistency you'll end up doing similar concepts for the whole map
23:12 Mentee: what do you mean by that o-o
23:12 MrSergio: älright, so...
23:12 MrSergio: this is part of structure, more or less
23:12 MrSergio: let's start from defining what is a map:
23:12 MrSergio: a series of objects placed on a song's rhythm, right?
23:13 MrSergio: now I ask you: how many songs do you map, usually? x)
23:13 Mentee: hmm
23:13 Mentee: i've mapped over 100 songs
23:13 Mentee: completed
23:13 Mentee: soo
23:13 MrSergio: I phrased it badly there
23:13 Mentee: i map anything
23:13 MrSergio: I meant, when you start mapping a new song, do you map more songs at once? xD
23:13 Mentee: ohh
23:13 Mentee: never
23:13 Mentee: I always focus on one song
23:13 MrSergio: exactly, that's the point
23:13 MrSergio: a map is meant for ONE song
23:14 Mentee: yeah exactly
23:14 Mentee: i feel like if i map another song on the side
23:14 MrSergio: what most mappers tend to forget is this
23:14 Mentee: i'll lose what i originally wanted for the map
23:14 MrSergio: I usually don't tho, I just need to recheck my own mapping, but that's a side note
23:15 MrSergio: this was to say that you should focus on the map as a unit, as a whole
23:15 MrSergio: not as something made of small parts put together
23:15 MrSergio: how this translates into mapping tho?
23:15 MrSergio: for example, take one pattern, any
23:15 MrSergio: this pattern will have some characteristics
23:15 MrSergio: maybe it has some overlaps done in a certain manner
23:15 MrSergio: maybe it has some particular stacks
23:15 MrSergio: maybe it keeps using some beats in particular
23:16 MrSergio: and so on
23:16 MrSergio: this few characteristics for this pattern are also the characteristics of your map
23:16 MrSergio: as we said, a maps is a unique block, a single concept
23:17 MrSergio: and here's what most mappers don't do: using similar concepts for all patterns
23:17 MrSergio: now... that's easier said than done
23:18 MrSergio: and in most cases, if we follow that logic, even generic maps do that
23:18 MrSergio: but generic maps are... generic...
23:18 MrSergio: and that's why I was focusing on your "gimmick" (which you can call special pattern too if you want)
23:19 MrSergio: if you build up an interesting pattern with particular characteristics you will later on base your whole map on those concepts
23:19 MrSergio: so if your pattern was cool, the map will be unusual and will stand out
23:19 MrSergio: if you obviously base your patterns around the usual jump spam and a comfortable angle... ugh
23:19 Mentee: :thinking:
23:20 MrSergio: I feel like I skipped a part
23:20 MrSergio: and that's regarding structure from one pattern
23:20 MrSergio: for this, it would be better to take a map as example
23:20 MrSergio: since we're just "assuming" things here
23:21 MrSergio: earlier I sent you
23:21 *MrSergio is listening to [b/787957 Dollscythe - Flashes (Extended)]
23:21 MrSergio: the last diff is a demonstration of how you can do great structures with few characteristics
23:22 MrSergio: take for example 00:01:365 (1,2,3) -
23:22 MrSergio: what are the characteristics of this pattern?
23:22 MrSergio: what really stands out in your opinion?
23:22 Mentee: the overlap
23:22 MrSergio: about just that single pattern, obviously
23:22 MrSergio: that's one, ok
23:22 Mentee: the movement that stops on the circle
23:22 Mentee: like it's pretty fluid till you stop on the circle
23:22 MrSergio: yeah, we can consider that too
23:23 MrSergio: that's two then
23:23 Mentee: it's symmetrical for the most part
23:23 MrSergio: oh, great, that's another one
23:23 MrSergio: and there is one last thing there
23:24 Mentee: 00:02:364 (3,1) - the pattern creates a snapping motion to this note
23:24 MrSergio: that's part of the other combo tho
23:24 MrSergio: so it's not really a valid one
23:24 Mentee: hmm true
23:24 MrSergio: it's more a connection (or transition), rather than a characteristic
23:24 MrSergio: how is the flow between those?
23:24 MrSergio: you pointed out the circle, and that's good
23:24 Mentee: back and forth
23:24 MrSergio: yep, that's the last one
23:25 MrSergio: back and forth or even "reverse flow" (if sounds cooler)
23:25 MrSergio: now
23:25 MrSergio: 00:02:698 (1,2,3,4) - what about this one?
23:25 Mentee: 00:01:864 (2,4) - stacked
23:26 Mentee: kinda blanketed by the previous pattern
23:26 MrSergio: you can either try to analyze it from scratch again or trying to match the previous characteristics
23:26 MrSergio: lol
23:26 MrSergio: nope
23:26 MrSergio: too far away x)
23:26 Mentee: 00:03:031 (2,3,4) - kinda counter-intuitive flow tbh
23:26 MrSergio: you got one there
23:26 Mentee: you'd move up even tho sliders are moving down
23:26 MrSergio: the reverse flow comes up again
23:26 Mentee: mhm
23:26 Mentee: again it's overlapped
23:26 MrSergio: that's two
23:26 Mentee: and again its symmetrical
23:26 MrSergio: that's three
23:27 MrSergio: he throws in even a blanket between 00:03:031 (2,3,4) - 00:02:698 (1) - , but that's a bit large and blankets are generic by nature
23:27 MrSergio: oh, great, we got 3 characteristics out of 4 in this pattern
23:27 MrSergio: this means that the bond between the first combo and the second one is really strong
23:27 MrSergio: this is where structure shows up, basically
23:28 MrSergio: you first build solid rules for one single pattern, then try to use the same rules for nearby patterns
23:28 MrSergio: in general, "similar things" are easier to notice, therefore using similar concepts on different parts will make the map feel more "united"
23:29 MrSergio: you'll see how a lot of aspects in mapping work better when there are similarities in play
23:29 Mentee: yeah i see o-o
23:29 MrSergio: maybe it doesn't seem like much, but trust me: this is really important
23:30 MrSergio: let's continue with the analysis tho
23:30 MrSergio: 00:04:031 (1,2,3) - well, I guess it is self explanatory
23:30 Mentee: mhm
23:30 MrSergio: from here on we notice how he keeps using the same patterns. We are in the same section of the song, which functions as the intro
23:31 MrSergio: and therefore it makes sense to do so, since it is easier to recognize such pattern and it is also easier in general
23:31 MrSergio: and intro shouldn't be traumatic after all, right?
23:31 Mentee: not really
23:31 MrSergio: I mean, if the song IS traumatic, then yeah
23:31 MrSergio: it always goes by case
23:31 Mentee: utsu-p
23:31 *Mentee runs
23:31 Mentee: yeah i understand
23:31 MrSergio: it's not a static rule after all
23:31 Mentee: should reflect the song right
23:32 MrSergio: usually, just go by the first and unique rule of mapping: the song is your overlord
23:32 MrSergio: yep
23:32 MrSergio: as said before, we're mapping on the song
23:32 MrSergio: and it obviously makes no sense to ignore it
23:32 MrSergio: anyway...
23:32 MrSergio: if we listen to the song, we notice that the intro section is...
23:33 MrSergio: 00:01:365 - 00:17:364 - more or less
23:33 MrSergio: I removed the transition part to the next section, so yeah
23:33 MrSergio: we expect this part of the song to use those 2 rhythms we saw in at the beginning, right?
23:33 MrSergio: the song is like that, we can't do much in that regard
23:33 MrSergio: and isn't that boring?
23:34 MrSergio: 16 seconds of 2 repetitive rhythm :v
23:34 MrSergio: that's when we need to "evolve" our patterns
23:34 MrSergio: there is usually a treshold for how many times in a row you can use the same pattern
23:35 MrSergio: here handsome does 00:01:365 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - this stuff trhee times
23:35 MrSergio: that's a fair number of times
23:35 MrSergio: in general I'd say that you should do the same pattern at least twice in a row if you can and no more than 4 times
23:35 Mentee: yeah that makes sense
23:35 MrSergio: with at least 2 similar patterns you make a stronger impression on the player, since it's like solidifying a concept
23:35 Mentee: it would get kinda repetitive
23:36 MrSergio: so you build structure
23:36 MrSergio: (side note: you can rarely build up structure with one pattern alone, because you need other patterns to compare it with )
23:37 MrSergio: structure is foundamentally both a direct thing you can control (for example, the structure of a single pattern) but also something relative, since you need other patterns to make the comparison with
23:37 MrSergio: anyway...
23:37 MrSergio: with 2 repetitions you build structure
23:37 MrSergio: with 4 you reach the upper limit before hitting boredom
23:37 MrSergio: so yeah, 3 is a good number (ttttttrrrrriangleeeeeees)
23:37 MrSergio: illuminati confirmed
23:38 MrSergio: xD
23:38 MrSergio: ahem, back on track
23:38 Mentee: LOL
23:38 Mentee: sensei pls
23:38 MrSergio: we said thins become boring because we have 16 seconds and 2 rhythms
23:38 MrSergio: soooooooo, we need to change something, but how?
23:39 MrSergio: first change: 00:12:031 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
23:39 MrSergio: characteristics?
23:39 MrSergio: I mean, 00:12:031 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
23:39 MrSergio: since yeah, that's the combo
23:40 Mentee: well
23:40 Mentee: 00:12:031 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - all blanketed with each other
23:40 Mentee: 00:12:698 (4,8) - overlapped
23:40 MrSergio: yeah, although blankets are generic we could add it as a characterstic
23:40 Mentee: the whole thing has reverse flow
23:41 MrSergio: so, we got: blanket, overlap, reverse flow
23:41 Mentee: 00:13:364 (8) - forces a stop
23:41 MrSergio: and the stop he used from the start
23:41 MrSergio: for now, let's remove blanket tho
23:41 MrSergio: trust me, using it as a reason leads to boring stuff
23:41 MrSergio: instead
23:41 MrSergio: take the ends of 00:12:031 (1,6,7) -
23:42 Mentee: triangle o-o
23:42 MrSergio: that's what I call an undirect structure: it is a triangle built by using different parts of the combo's objects
23:42 MrSergio: yep
23:42 MrSergio: this is more a thing about our brain, but as you can see by yourself, in gameplay you don't totally forget the objects you played 1 sec ago, right?
23:43 MrSergio: our brain puts together few of these objects at a time and if he finds an easy to recognize structure (like the trioangle) it perceives it as something "good" or in any case, something with a meaning
23:43 MrSergio: that's also why it is a good thing to make average length combos and not just 2 objects each
23:44 MrSergio: if you do so our brain simply separates everything into pieces and it will have less meaning, and therefore less structure
23:44 Mentee: i see o-o
23:44 MrSergio: (see how all the stuff builds up just because of a combo choice)
23:44 MrSergio: imagine like our brain has a RAM
23:45 MrSergio: it puts into the RAM few objects at a time, usually a combo, and analizes them
23:45 MrSergio: if it finds reasons, it will give a better impression
23:45 MrSergio: reasons: geometrical shapes or whatever characteristic you used at least once in a "easy to recognize manner" (like using twice the same pattern for example)
23:46 MrSergio: oh, one thing I noticed just now which is a bit awkward
23:46 MrSergio: 00:13:364 (8,1) - the NC should be reversed
23:47 MrSergio: 00:10:698 (1) -
23:47 MrSergio: but anyway, no big deal
23:47 MrSergio: next is: 00:13:364 (8,1,2,3) -
23:47 MrSergio: this is where that "evolution" stuff happens
23:47 MrSergio: what characteristics do you have here?
23:48 Mentee: hmm the nc is fine tho
23:48 Mentee: puts more emphasis on the pattern after
23:48 MrSergio: yep
23:48 Mentee: AAANYway
23:48 MrSergio: that's why it is a minor thing
23:48 Mentee: it's overlapped again
23:48 MrSergio: one of those things that they fit better like that
23:48 Mentee: flow is
23:48 Mentee: uh
23:48 Mentee: unique
23:48 MrSergio: well...
23:48 MrSergio: for flow:
23:48 MrSergio: take 00:13:698 (1) - and the head of 00:14:031 (2) -
23:49 MrSergio: how is it?
23:49 MrSergio: imagine just that movement
23:49 Mentee: it is back and forth too yea
23:49 Mentee: xd
23:49 MrSergio: exactly
23:49 MrSergio: so, what did he do here?
23:49 Mentee: used the same concepts
23:49 MrSergio: he changed something, but without changing the base on which he was working
23:49 MrSergio: so in this case he kept the reverse flow, but changed slider shape
23:50 MrSergio: by doing just this he created a new pattern, but it is strongly connected to the rest of the map thus far
23:50 MrSergio: awesome, isn't it?
23:50 MrSergio: that's how you cna built a map by creating just... 3-4 patterns, lol
23:50 MrSergio: you can then evolve those few patterns into new stuff
23:51 MrSergio: and that's what I was referring to at the start of the "lesson"
23:51 Mentee: it is cool yea o-o
23:51 MrSergio: few concepts for the whole map
23:51 MrSergio: and here's the perfect example
23:51 MrSergio: so yeah, you have the reverse flow and the overlap
23:52 MrSergio: visually, those were the most important aspects, so even if we don't have the blanket (which I told you it was generic and minor before) it doesn't change much
23:52 MrSergio: it actually feels perfectly fine as it is
23:53 MrSergio: he also kept the stopped movement on a circle with the previous combo
23:53 MrSergio: so it's again 3 out of 4 reasons
23:53 MrSergio: but hey, we forgot to expand our list of reasons tho
23:53 MrSergio: 00:15:198 (2,3,4,5,6) - don't forget about the stream
23:54 MrSergio: he uses this to build up the transition part as you'll see
23:54 MrSergio: for example: 00:20:531 (1,2,3,4,5) - isn't the same DS?
23:55 Mentee: 00:17:864 (2) - this one is higher ds
23:55 Mentee: tho
23:55 MrSergio: with streams it is actually easier to create "evolutions", since you you have either to change shape of stream (curves) or spacing
23:55 MrSergio: uh, right, slightly
23:55 MrSergio: I assume that was because the song is nearing the transition part, which builds up emphasis
23:55 MrSergio: so the increase in volume in the song is represented with a slight increase in spacing
23:56 Mentee: mhm
23:56 MrSergio: 00:18:698 (10,1) - notice how he still keeps that "stopped movement" feeling, even tho the pattern changed
23:56 MrSergio: it is not a single circle this time, so he managed something different
23:56 MrSergio: the concept is still there tho, and that's what matters
23:57 MrSergio: 00:20:031 (1,2,3) - do you remember about the triangle from before? It now gains meaning, since we used it one more time explicitly
23:58 MrSergio: in the next part this triangle is really important, since it used really often (00:24:698 (1,2,3) - for example)
23:58 MrSergio: it is used*
23:58 MrSergio: 00:25:864 (1,2,3) - and again
23:58 MrSergio: last thing and we can probably stop, since it's just the same thing: analyze, search, confirm characteristics
23:59 MrSergio: 00:27:031 (2,3,4,5) - why do you think we have such flow here?
23:59 Mentee: to emphasize the snare on the 4
23:59 Mentee: which is also back and forth
23:59 MrSergio: well, that too, perhaps xD
23:59 MrSergio: yep, that ^
00:00 MrSergio: actually yeah, both reasons
00:00 MrSergio: so yeah, he once again evolved his reverse flow concept
00:00 MrSergio: and due to the heavy usage we had in the intro, this actually feels natural
00:01 MrSergio: I pointed this out because when I analyzed this map with someone else he pointed out how 00:27:198 (3,5) - ths could have been Ctrl + G'd
00:01 MrSergio: so I thought I might clear that up as well xD
00:01 MrSergio: that option is indeed a valid option, but it goes against the previous used concepts
00:01 Mentee: hmm
00:01 MrSergio: hence, it doesn't fit
00:01 MrSergio: even if it works
00:02 MrSergio: and that's once again one of those things mappers totally discard
00:02 MrSergio: just because it works it doesn't mean it is good
00:02 Mentee: 00:37:698 (2,3,4,5) - but he doesn't really do it here
00:02 MrSergio: in fact, it brings down structure and conssitency
00:02 MrSergio: triangle tho
00:02 Mentee: ah so it doesn't have to be all elements
00:02 Mentee: but at least one of them
00:02 MrSergio: nope
00:03 MrSergio: remember the RAM?
00:03 Mentee: mhm
00:03 MrSergio: once we identify a concept (for example when we have 2 similar patterns in a row) we store that concept
00:03 MrSergio: once we store that concept we can recall it whenever we want, like a function (if you know programming)
00:04 Mentee: funny you mention that
00:04 Mentee: i'm learning programming atm xD
00:04 MrSergio: the cool thing about this is that once we have few concepts built and stored in our brain we can recall them in the order we want or we deem fits better
00:04 MrSergio: it also helps keeping structure while adding variation to the map
00:05 MrSergio: (having 2 similar patterns in a row everywhere becomes boring too, since once you see the first one you know there will be a second one. And that sucks)
00:05 MrSergio: so that's how you add variation without saying "fuck you" to structure
00:05 MrSergio: all this stuff I told you right now is not easy to manage all at once
00:06 MrSergio: with a lot of practice you just do things consistently without the need to analyze this much everything
00:06 MrSergio: you just... map and that's it
00:06 MrSergio: but if you struggle for a few times to achieve this you'll get used to it later on, and that would be great
00:06 MrSergio: since, well, this map is awesome for example
00:07 MrSergio: and if you manage to do the same, oho, that would be even more awesome
00:07 Mentee: \o/
00:07 MrSergio: so
00:07 Mentee: i'll definitely try
00:07 MrSergio: the best thing you can do is either analyzing other maps or trying to make up unusual characteristics for your maps
00:07 MrSergio: or even better: both
00:07 MrSergio: this is my theory, the practice is relatively up to you xD
00:08 MrSergio: as a rule for the mentorship program, I won't try to give too many suggestions using my style
00:08 MrSergio: that's because I'd rather leave you guys develope what you prefer as a style
00:09 MrSergio: I don't need a copy of myself, that would take away my personality as a mapper either way =3=
00:09 MrSergio: so yeah, even when you analyze other maps make sure to not copy exactly everything. Try to add a twist to it
00:09 MrSergio: having two mappers with the same style is boring :^)
00:09 Mentee: true that xD
00:10 MrSergio: so yeah... I might as well call it a day for now, since I get the feeling it was heavy enough
00:10 MrSergio: I hope I managed to explain somehow how structure works xD
00:10 MrSergio: and that's mainly the reason I get triggered by maps nowadays
00:11 MrSergio: it's that tiny difference between using a pattern which is different but structured, and a pattern which is just different fro the sake of variation
00:11 Mentee: right so
00:12 Mentee: you should cement concepts in the introduction
00:12 Mentee: and use them consistently through the song
00:12 Mentee: right?
00:12 MrSergio: well, you can, but you might as well start mapping from the kiai and go backwards
00:12 MrSergio: but yeah
00:12 MrSergio: that's how it works
00:12 Mentee: alright noted
00:12 Mentee: will do for future maps
00:12 Mentee: xd
00:12 MrSergio: if you go take the most interesting part of the song and map it first you might end up with a better map overall, since you take concepts from that awesome pattern first
00:13 MrSergio: it is a bit unusual, but it works
00:13 MrSergio: going in order is good too tho
00:13 MrSergio: I just find it a bit harder to create something interesting because intros are usually boring
00:13 Mentee: That makes sense o-o
00:14 MrSergio: so you go in the kiai, make a pseudo pattern and then start mapping
00:14 MrSergio: that way you get the feeling of what you'd like to have when you reach the kiai
00:14 MrSergio: so you can prepare the previous patterns in a way that makes sense
00:14 MrSergio: and well... it's just planning
00:14 MrSergio: analyzing and planning
00:14 MrSergio: that's what structure is xd
00:20 MrSergio: I guess I'll need to make a small lesson on how simplifcation is important'
00:20 MrSergio: since most of the times little differences in the song won't be noticeable in gameplay
00:20 MrSergio: actually, many songs do that, so trying to follow "everything" is a bad idea
00:21 MrSergio: when there are these small changes you can easily use your map to slightly change things and make them "look" similar, even if they slightly change
00:21 MrSergio: it's important to build structure for the map and the song won't really make a big difference
00:21 Mentee: i don't really understand o-o
00:21 Mentee: do you mean if the change isn't noticeable, don't make it noticeable in the map either?
00:22 MrSergio: yep
00:22 MrSergio: like, <this> note has a slightly different pitch in the previous similar rhythm, so I'll make it slightly different
00:22 MrSergio: nope
00:23 MrSergio: there is no real need to do so
00:23 Mentee: i see o-o
00:23 MrSergio: with practice you'll also see how much you can ignore in the music
00:23 MrSergio: so you'll define a limit for yourself for how much time you can keep not variating things and when you should do it
00:24 MrSergio: structure of your map takes priority over faitfuly representing each single note's pitch
00:24 MrSergio: consider this: if you try following perfectly your song you might end up with slight differences in your patterns, which therefore brings down the overall structure
00:24 MrSergio: if you instead disregard that little difference and make use of similar patterns you just threw away a tiny piece of song, but gained a lot of structure for your map

17:28 MrSergio: I hope you like geometry and spatial visualization
17:28 Mentee: should not be bad
17:28 MrSergio: cause we're gonna treat emphasis
17:28 MrSergio: first of all: what does the word even mean? xD
17:29 Mentee: the importance of something
17:29 MrSergio: ye, sounds good
17:29 MrSergio: I usually go by "how much stressful a note is" but that works too
17:29 MrSergio: emphasis is used to tell the player what is important and what isn't
17:30 MrSergio: emphasis alone is nothing tho, that's why we need to consider spacing AND flow when talking about it
17:31 MrSergio: so, first of all, spacing and emphasis
17:31 MrSergio: how do these relate and cooperate in the map:
17:31 MrSergio: first on the list is the most basic one: direct spacing/emphasis
17:32 MrSergio: this doesn't require much to explain... it is simply "the more spacing between two objects, the more emphasis on the second object"
17:32 Mentee: That one's pretty easy
17:33 MrSergio: `[http://i.imgur.com/at46XLd.png this] will be weaker than [http://i.imgur.com/m1o6iuH.png this], basically
17:33 Mentee: yup
17:33 MrSergio: since the jump is bigger (and therefore harder to catch) the stress on the second note is higher, giving the note more importance, aka emphasis
17:34 MrSergio: that's easy
17:34 MrSergio: now we gotta step up and convert the direct spacing/emphasis into relative
17:34 MrSergio: I use relative as a word because we have to consider 3 or more objects in this case
17:35 Mentee: ok
17:35 MrSergio: taken [http://i.imgur.com/zbz7ast.png this], which is the one with the most emphasis?
17:35 Mentee: 3
17:35 MrSergio: because the last jump is the biggest one
17:35 MrSergio: exactly
17:36 MrSergio: what about [http://i.imgur.com/5QdmmbX.png this] instead?
17:37 Mentee: Well 1 beacause its awkward
17:37 MrSergio: ye xD
17:37 Mentee: or 3 beacause of the sharp angle
17:37 MrSergio: it's 1 there, but why?
17:37 MrSergio: the "awkward" has to do with it, but that wording doesn't work to explain it precisely
17:37 Mentee: It breaks your expectation and what has happenned so far
17:38 MrSergio: alright, that sounds better
17:38 Mentee: scientific answers
17:38 MrSergio: yes, I called it relative because it depends on the concepts we apply
17:38 MrSergio: ye lol
17:38 MrSergio: in that pattern, large spacing is the norm
17:38 MrSergio: back and forth is also the norm
17:38 MrSergio: what the last jump does is using a small jump with a rather large angle jump
17:39 MrSergio: 2 aspects which are completely opposite from the rest
17:39 MrSergio: if you play that pattern you will feel it that the 1 is being the most stressing note in there
17:40 MrSergio: (although it has to do partly with flow too, but we'll get there)
17:40 MrSergio: now let's talk about some emphasis we can't directl change, but that we can go with or against it
17:40 Mentee: wait
17:40 Mentee: cant cirectly change?
17:40 Mentee: directly*
17:40 MrSergio: directly*
17:41 MrSergio: yes
17:41 MrSergio: you can change the distance between two objects, right?
17:41 MrSergio: that wasy emphasis changes too
17:41 Mentee: Im pretty sure I can
17:41 MrSergio: way*
17:41 MrSergio: yes, because it's a physical action you perform on the map
17:41 MrSergio: but you can't change how playfield emphasis works on your patterns
17:42 MrSergio: yes, the playfield has emphasis
17:42 Mentee: like where you place it?
17:43 MrSergio: zz, why is sharex not taking my notes
17:43 Mentee: rip
17:43 MrSergio: give me a moment, I'm trying to make a screen lol
17:44 Mentee: np
17:44 Mentee: plenty of time
17:44 MrSergio: ok, it should work now. I just pressed the wrong button before
17:44 MrSergio: http://i.imgur.com/83Rc6zw.png
17:45 MrSergio: we're taking this from a perspective of a tablet player
17:45 Mentee: yup
17:45 MrSergio: whatever falls within the center of the field will be easier to play, because the hand will have less stress to stretch
17:45 MrSergio: on the contrary, reaching the corners will automatically feel the patterns more stressful, hence they will feel harsher or with more emphasis
17:46 MrSergio: as an experiment, try mapping in one corner only
17:46 MrSergio: like... 5 secs, and see how it turns out in gameplay lol
17:46 MrSergio: it will really feel exhausting in the long run
17:46 Mentee: itll probably be really weird
17:46 MrSergio: and also weird, yes
17:47 MrSergio: there is also a slight distinction among all the corners
17:47 MrSergio: some corners will feel more stressful than others
17:47 Mentee: I hate bottom right with a passion
17:47 MrSergio: it depends on what hand you use to play: for right handed, the bottom right corner is the most stressful
17:47 MrSergio: yes
17:48 MrSergio: it depends on how you have to place your hand to reach such corners
17:49 MrSergio: on the same reasoning: [http://i.imgur.com/GJIlpOz.png these movements]
17:50 MrSergio: red means stressful, green easier, orange is in-between
17:50 MrSergio: although the green one is kind of a gray zone
17:50 MrSergio: and it depends on how used to those movements you are
17:50 Mentee: orange is the easiest for me
17:50 Mentee: probably personal
17:50 MrSergio: umh... ye, now that I check it myself orange is easier for me too
17:50 Mentee: I rest my hand on my tablet so
17:51 MrSergio: well, just keep in mind how the hand moves when planning your emphasis across teh screen
17:51 Mentee: yup
17:51 Mentee: will do
17:51 MrSergio: the general rule is that: border > center movements are easier than center > border ones
17:52 MrSergio: because as I said, returning to the center of the playefield is less stressful in general (since it's the resting position of the hand)
17:52 MrSergio: the last type of emphasis is what I call "gravity"
17:53 Mentee: thats a pretty cool name for it actually
17:53 MrSergio: since we are born, we have to live together with this strange force called "gravity", which brings down to earth everything
17:53 MrSergio: as a result, our mind perceives downwards movements as stronger
17:54 MrSergio: because we automatically add some force towards teh bottom which is added to whatever movement we make
17:54 MrSergio: it's more of an impression we get, rather than actual force on the playfield
17:54 MrSergio: but in general movements goind downwards will feel stronger than movements going upwards
17:54 MrSergio: that's because downwards we have the gravity's help, while upwards we go against it
17:55 MrSergio: I seem to be using such emphasis a lot in my maps for some reason
17:55 Mentee: I used it a couple of times
17:55 Mentee: allthough I did not know this
17:56 MrSergio: I believe many ignore this, and it's actually fine
17:56 Mentee: it was just a feeling
17:56 MrSergio: but I have a strong belief it is there anyway
17:56 MrSergio: the fact my maps work on emphasis so much is proof of that I guess
17:56 MrSergio: but anyway
17:56 MrSergio: this is the part about spacing related to emphasis
17:56 MrSergio: it's time to make things more complex, lol
17:57 Mentee: flow emphasis?
17:57 MrSergio: if you noticed, so far we have considered just... a single type of jumps: sharp angles
17:57 MrSergio: yes
17:57 MrSergio: with angles we also have to make a distinction between circles and sliders now
17:58 MrSergio: because they work the exact opposite way, given the same angle
17:58 MrSergio: (we'll get there)
17:58 MrSergio: it's to take out the geometry book again and give it a look
17:59 MrSergio: time to*
17:59 MrSergio: to do this, we need at least 3 circles, or one circle and one slider
17:59 MrSergio: we'll start from 3 circles since it's easier
18:00 Mentee: I saw some of the patterns in the pinned message actually
18:00 Mentee: those patterns?
18:00 MrSergio: umh... nope
18:00 MrSergio: those are more as a pattern library
18:01 MrSergio: to try to give some starting point for new patterns which have a meaning
18:01 MrSergio: http://i.imgur.com/uoKxMhs.png let's take this picture
18:01 MrSergio: I put 3 different angles in there
18:01 MrSergio: so far we've been considering just the pink one
18:01 MrSergio: sharp angles
18:02 MrSergio: among those three jumps, which is the one with the most emphasis?
18:02 Mentee: blue plays quite weird
18:02 Mentee: so I guess that one
18:02 MrSergio: well, with jump I always mean "the last object"
18:03 MrSergio: so in that regard, the right answer was the pink on
18:03 MrSergio: one*
18:03 Mentee: oh
18:03 Mentee: I get it onw
18:03 Mentee: now*
18:03 MrSergio: but exactly "why?"
18:03 Mentee: that one requires the most change in movement
18:04 MrSergio: (let me make a screen)
18:04 MrSergio: this would work better with a video tho
18:04 MrSergio: but anyway...
18:06 MrSergio: ok, got it: http://i.imgur.com/eHBn7Lu.png
18:07 MrSergio: let's see what that means
18:07 MrSergio: the circle there is where I would place an additional circle: for now ignore it
18:07 MrSergio: take in consideration only the first orange arrow
18:07 Mentee: ok
18:08 MrSergio: if you move towards 2 and hit it, then stay where you are... how will it feel? Strong emphasis? Weak emphasis?
18:08 Mentee: just from 1 to 2?
18:08 MrSergio: yes
18:08 Mentee: pretty weak
18:09 Mentee: low spacing and simple movement
18:09 MrSergio: well, spacing is arbitrary taken there
18:09 MrSergio: I could have taken a giant spacing, but I wouldn't hve space for more drawings in the screen xD
18:09 Mentee: xD
18:10 MrSergio: well, let's introduce a new concept (if you like physics you might quickly get this): inertia
18:10 Mentee: seems familliar
18:10 Mentee: I feel like I should know this
18:10 MrSergio: it's fun to reminisce this, since my old prof of physics made me a really amazing example of this
18:10 MrSergio: inertia is a type of force
18:11 MrSergio: as gravity
18:11 MrSergio: my prof called this force like this:
18:12 MrSergio: "when you hit an object, inertia is the object's voice telling you "what the fuck do you want?". The bigger its inertia, the louder it will scream that sentence"
18:12 MrSergio: it's the same reason why when you crash with the car into a wall, the car goes into rubble
18:13 MrSergio: it's because the wall "reflects" part of the car's force when it hit the wall
18:13 MrSergio: ever tried punching someone? Spoiler: it will hurt your hand
18:13 Mentee: I can imagine
18:14 MrSergio: to put it in more academic words: inertia is the object's resistance to change its current amount movement, be it still or in movement
18:14 Mentee: got it
18:14 MrSergio: so...
18:14 MrSergio: let's translate all this wonderful stuff into mapping
18:15 MrSergio: imagine each object on the playfield as a material object
18:15 MrSergio: something hard and resistant
18:15 MrSergio: a wall is good: each object forms a wall
18:16 MrSergio: taking back the same example, just 1 and 2, what happens when you smash against 2?
18:17 MrSergio: (we're not considering anything else. Just imagine a car, your cursor, going towards a wall, circle (2))
18:17 MrSergio: what will happen in such conditions?
18:17 Mentee: that'd hurt
18:17 MrSergio: exactly
18:17 MrSergio: that hurts
18:17 MrSergio: which translates into: there is emphasis on 2
18:18 MrSergio: now...
18:18 MrSergio: take back the full picture
18:18 MrSergio: and we will now consider the emphasis on 2, but taking in account the movement towards the next object (the purple circle I drew)
18:19 Mentee: so basically you dont really hit a wall cause you dont stop at 2?
18:19 MrSergio: again, this is stuff you do in physics classes, but each movement can be defined into a xoy graph
18:19 MrSergio: well, you do hit it because you click on it
18:19 MrSergio: you just don't stop there
18:19 MrSergio: there's probably a better image here, instead of the wall
18:20 MrSergio: but it is important to do it like this for now to make you understand the principle
18:20 MrSergio: back to what I was saying: each movement can be divided into and x-movement and an y-movement
18:20 MrSergio: (the blue lines I drew)
18:20 Mentee: yeah
18:20 MrSergio: alright...
18:21 MrSergio: the y axis, the vertical one, is the one following our main movement, the jump 1 -> 2
18:21 MrSergio: we did this just now: if you hit a wall frontally, you will crash at full force
18:22 MrSergio: so my screen will become something like...
18:22 MrSergio: [http://i.imgur.com/ENfAIfP.png this]
18:22 MrSergio: where the blue arrow indicates the amount of inertia
18:23 Mentee: the amount of force needed to stop on 2?
18:23 MrSergio: the amount of force you "feel" against your cursor when hitting 2
18:23 Mentee: ok
18:23 MrSergio: that's the resistance that object opposes
18:23 MrSergio: to your cursor
18:24 MrSergio: now... let's try to rotate things
18:24 MrSergio: (ah, the y component has 0 inertia for technical reasons of physics, so we won't go there)
18:25 MrSergio: if you know math or physics, you know why, otherwise we don't care
18:25 Mentee: I probably knew
18:25 MrSergio: it;s just 0 and adds no inertia in the least
18:25 Mentee: but not anymore
18:25 MrSergio: lol
18:25 MrSergio: that's fine, dw
18:25 MrSergio: let's take another angle now...
18:27 MrSergio: http://i.imgur.com/V2QaPW7.png
18:27 MrSergio: what are the differences here?
18:27 MrSergio: from the other jump, I mean
18:28 Mentee: the force on your pen is almost in an opposite direction
18:28 MrSergio: yes
18:28 MrSergio: to be more accurate: the blue arrow is bigger/longer, which means more inertia, which translates into more pressure on the note, aka emphasis
18:30 Mentee: yup
18:30 MrSergio: damn, I misclicked and rip screen
18:30 Mentee: rip
18:31 MrSergio: ok, fixed
18:31 MrSergio: http://i.imgur.com/0etqRq3.png
18:31 MrSergio: in general
18:31 MrSergio: if we keep 1 and 2 in the same position
18:32 MrSergio: if we place an object between the red lines (the whole area is valid), 2 will be strongly emphasized thanks to that previous screens I showed you
18:32 MrSergio: anything between red and orange lines will be a gray area, where 2 won't be as defined as the first case, but they will still have some emphasis, so overall it works well
18:32 Mentee: cause a lot of force is needed to make the huge turn
18:33 MrSergio: this is the generic anime style mapping if you check the jumps in their maps: they are not really defined as a jump, but they work and no one complains
18:33 Mentee: I was wondering when it was going to come to that
18:33 MrSergio: they are also easier, since the amoung of inertia is exactly right not make it too stressful, but at the same time it is there and it's noticeable enough
18:33 MrSergio: amount*
18:34 MrSergio: anything between the orange lines present almost no resistance on 2, which has a couple of consequence
18:34 MrSergio: just imagine those lines from before and you will notice how the blue arrow is short, if not in-existent
18:35 MrSergio: this makes it so that:
18:35 MrSergio: - 3 will usually hold more emphasis due to the lack of resistance on 2
18:36 MrSergio: - 2 becomes harder to catch if you follow a "fluid" movement from object to object
18:36 MrSergio: but it will also have the least resistance
18:36 MrSergio: if you instead "snap" from note to note, 2 will be equally strong in emphasis, since the snap movement makes up for the missing emphasis
18:36 Mentee: I got it now
18:36 Mentee: I think
18:37 MrSergio: in turn this makes it kinda harsher to catch, since you gotta accelerate on 2, then stop on 2, then accelerate again on 3
18:37 MrSergio: which is kinda... stressful
18:37 MrSergio: I tend to make fluid movements, so for me 2 would feel non-existent if 3 is within the orange area
18:38 MrSergio: those who snap more will not really feel a big difference. They might be a bit pissed of by the uncomfortable movements
18:38 MrSergio: in general, straight movements are uncomfortable for that reason
18:38 MrSergio: you gotta move, stop, move, stop, back and forth in a straight line a lot of times, which is stressing
18:39 MrSergio: this sounds complex, but it's just a matter of practice
18:39 MrSergio: you will assimilate this stuff once you try it out without noticing
18:40 Mentee: I tend to avoid the straight line ones pretty often
18:40 Mentee: probably shouldnt
18:40 Mentee: well not exactly straigth
18:40 Mentee: but between the orange lines
18:41 MrSergio: just to make sure, if the jump is rotated, the axis are rotated too: http://i.imgur.com/QRt8dOz.png
18:41 Mentee: yeah
18:41 MrSergio: so make sure to consider inertia the right way
18:41 Mentee: should be expected
18:41 MrSergio: this is good and all
18:41 MrSergio: but what about sliders? x)
18:42 Mentee: oh god
18:43 MrSergio: we have [http://i.imgur.com/NNmy7iU.png this] vs [http://i.imgur.com/SYwQWQT.png this]
18:43 MrSergio: I am taking the extreme situations
18:43 Mentee: 2 is super stressfull
18:43 MrSergio: you now should be able to use the stuff we went over just now to various angles
18:43 MrSergio: which one?
18:43 MrSergio: ah, you mean second screen
18:43 Mentee: the second one
18:43 Mentee: yeah
18:43 MrSergio: and you're right, it's stressful
18:43 MrSergio: but is it emphasized too?
18:44 Mentee: you dont only need to stop, you also need to keep going the other direction
18:44 Mentee: I would say the slider is emphasized
18:44 MrSergio: well... this is where the "Einstein" game begins xD
18:45 MrSergio: well, it's nothing really difficult to get, it's just that it is strange
18:45 MrSergio: strange as the way you need to think of to get Einstein's relativity law xD
18:45 MrSergio: if you don't know about the story here's a quick sum-up:
18:46 MrSergio: imagine a person jumping off a cliff into the sea
18:46 Mentee: I dont think I do
18:46 MrSergio: pretty normal thing to see if you go to the sea, right?
18:46 MrSergio: now... normal people would think that the person jumped and moves towards the sea at a certain velocity, right?
18:46 Mentee: Where do you go on vacation?
18:46 MrSergio: I mean, that sounds like... common sense
18:47 MrSergio: hey, I never said they are huge cliffs lol
18:47 Mentee: yeah
18:47 MrSergio: anyway
18:47 MrSergio: Einstein, to formulate his relativity theory, thought otherwise: it's not the person going towards the sea, but it's the sea (and everything around the sea) going towards the person
18:48 MrSergio: that doesn't... sound right, isn't it?
18:48 Mentee: so basically the entire earth going towards the person
18:48 MrSergio: yes
18:48 Mentee: sounds off
18:48 MrSergio: it's a matter of perspective tho
18:48 MrSergio: in mapping as well
18:49 MrSergio: here we shouldn't look to inertia, but rather to movement
18:49 MrSergio: let's take a different angle to make it easier
18:49 MrSergio: http://i.imgur.com/LWBj3cU.png
18:50 MrSergio: now, it is true you hit the head of the slider
18:50 MrSergio: but you're not considering the rest of the slider, body included
18:50 MrSergio: yes, when you hit the head you get the inertia from it, but you are not stopping on it
18:51 MrSergio: imagine as if there is a slimy substance on the slider head: once you hit the slider, the cursor slips away in the slider's direction
18:51 MrSergio: inertia here doesn't really apply due to such substance
18:51 MrSergio: on the contrary, think of it this way
18:51 Mentee: ok
18:52 MrSergio: imagine [http://i.imgur.com/k7bsu9d.png this] is a road
18:52 MrSergio: your cursor is a car running on such road
18:53 Mentee: yeah
18:53 MrSergio: that should be easy, right?
18:53 Mentee: yup
18:53 MrSergio: now... what happens when you have to turn around at the curve?
18:53 MrSergio: say you were going at 70Km/h
18:53 MrSergio: can you make such a turn?
18:54 Mentee: you crash pretty badly if you dont slow down
18:54 MrSergio: I mean, without decreasing speed?
18:54 MrSergio: exactly
18:54 MrSergio: you slow down, but if you slow down you never crash
18:54 MrSergio: and we said that that feeling of "crushing" was the inertia, the emphasis
18:54 MrSergio: crash*
18:54 Mentee: yeah
18:54 MrSergio: let's go back to the road tho
18:55 MrSergio: if you were on such a road you would: decrease the speed, turn around, and slowly speeding up again, right?
18:55 Mentee: yeah
18:56 MrSergio: alright, here's the catch:
18:56 MrSergio: inertia here is developed by your own cursor moving towards an object
18:57 MrSergio: if we were in physics, that would be called centrifuge force
18:57 MrSergio: it's basically the resistance you have to make in order to avoid getting pushed out of the road when you turn
18:57 MrSergio: you experience such a feeling daily, or almost, I believe
18:58 MrSergio: so the matter about sliders is that they do not have inertia. In fact, the centrifuge force makes it so that there is something pulling you towards the slider head
18:58 MrSergio: towards and outside the slider
18:59 MrSergio: slider heads are purely stress and not stress which translates into emphasis
18:59 MrSergio: I mean, just try it yourself and you'll see how that slider feels
19:00 MrSergio: since the head makes no resistance on your movement, this time around you need to go in the same direction as your jump if you want emphasis on the slider head
19:00 Mentee: you dont really syop
19:00 Mentee: stop*
19:00 MrSergio: xD
19:00 MrSergio: yeah
19:00 MrSergio: you "turn" which means "moving slowly"
19:00 MrSergio: so you still move
19:01 MrSergio: and you even need to make an effort to stay on track
19:02 MrSergio: on the contrary, [http://i.imgur.com/EVc4BQu.png this] would feel way better to put emphasis on 2
19:02 MrSergio: because the slider body is in teh same direction as your cursor's movement
19:02 MrSergio: this means no stress for the cursor to turn around
19:02 Mentee: cause in this case you need to stop and then follow the slider
19:02 MrSergio: yes
19:03 MrSergio: we also skipped a thing that we might have needed to clarify from the start tho:
19:03 MrSergio: sliders have a natural emphasis on the head
19:03 MrSergio: why?
19:03 MrSergio: because you click the head but not the tail
19:03 Mentee: should have known
19:03 MrSergio: yes, but it's actually an important point
19:03 MrSergio: since in this case we consider also the slider body
19:04 Mentee: that doesnt have much importance
19:04 MrSergio: making it short: in the last screen the slider body puts no stress on the cursor
19:04 MrSergio: while the natural emphasis on the slider is shown due to this lack of resistance
19:04 MrSergio: if the slider body shows resistance, aka making you make a sharp turn, the head will feel just stressful and not emphasized
19:05 MrSergio: so rip emphazie
19:05 MrSergio: emphasis
19:06 MrSergio: so now things are inverted: http://i.imgur.com/3Gz9JOf.png
19:06 Mentee: it feels like alot to keep in account when making a single jump
19:07 MrSergio: sliders doing wide angles will make less resistance, making the head more emphasized
19:07 MrSergio: sliders doing sharp angles will make more resistance, hence taking it away from the head
19:07 MrSergio: well, it looks like
19:07 MrSergio: but I am explaining this through geometry and physics because it's the only way to make it "objective"
19:08 MrSergio: when you map, you actually don't consider this much
19:08 MrSergio: you just see what "feels" right and what not
19:08 MrSergio: but knowing this can give you the reason why something doesn't feel right, as well as giving you a way to explain why
19:08 Mentee: thats how I judge all my maps so far
19:09 MrSergio: therefore gives you the instrunctions on what to fix
19:09 Mentee: one of my maps actually didnt work well
19:09 Mentee: I now know why
19:09 MrSergio: I mean... if you like going deep into stuff, this sort of thing is like amazing, since it's something easily fixable with the right knowledge (and it applies to everything)
19:10 MrSergio: in the grand scheme this stuff is actually nothing anyway, but knowing how it works in such detail is what makes me love emphasis
19:10 MrSergio: and that's also why I get triggered by sloppy emphasis usage here and tehre in anime maps <.<
19:11 MrSergio: we will also go over 'contrast" and its importance in maps, but it will be for later
19:11 MrSergio: this stuff is one of the most practice-requiring ones tho
19:11 MrSergio: at least, if you want to apply it consciously in the maps you make/mod
19:11 Mentee: I watched that one video once from Mo about sliders and how they emphasize stuff when placed differently
19:12 Mentee: which was quite confusing back then
19:12 MrSergio: you can always fo with the good old trial process
19:12 MrSergio: go*
19:12 MrSergio: I don't think I saw that one
19:12 MrSergio: well, I saw just one of his videos so far I think, so my bad xD
19:12 Mentee:
19:13 MrSergio: but you now know why that happened I believe
19:13 Mentee: yup
19:13 MrSergio: with circles, think of the car crashing into a wall, with sliders, think of the car on the road
19:13 MrSergio: once you do that for one jump, you can do it for more jumps in sequence
19:14 MrSergio: and therefore refer to the stuff we talked about in the first half of the lesson
19:14 MrSergio: about relative spacing
19:14 MrSergio: and playfield/gravity emphasis
19:14 Mentee: ill just savelog for future reference
19:14 MrSergio: a good way to exeriment is taking an angle like I did in my screen from a very natural position where nothing else is in play
19:15 MrSergio: then you start rotating it and see how relative spacing (by adding more jumps in sequence) and how gravity/playfield (by rotating it) affects it
19:15 MrSergio: it's actually fun if you get into it xD
19:15 MrSergio: this is one, if not the only one, aspect which can be defined so precisely through math/physics
19:16 Mentee: Do you question each object when mapping?
19:16 Mentee: like do I emphasize this?
19:16 MrSergio: umh... depends
19:16 MrSergio: I certainly do care about every aspecct
19:16 MrSergio: but depends on the rules I set for my map at the start
19:16 MrSergio: aka, depends on the style
19:17 MrSergio: but we will get to that too eventually
19:17 MrSergio: to reply in a more mundane way to your question: yes, I do consider each note when I map (which is probably why I struggle to get satisfiedwith my stuff)
19:18 Mentee: I always feel satisfied with what I made
19:18 MrSergio: just take it with your pace tho, I don't pretend from anyone to do what I do
19:18 Mentee: until I map the next map
19:18 Mentee: and then look back
19:18 Mentee: and think
19:18 Mentee: god tahts horrible
19:18 MrSergio: ah, ye, that's an universal thing for mappers xD
19:18 MrSergio: it's proof you improved
19:18 MrSergio: and that you realize you improved
19:19 MrSergio: which is obviously nice
19:19 MrSergio: well, some don't really realize that, actually
19:19 MrSergio: which worries me D:
19:19 MrSergio: but ye...
19:20 MrSergio: let's call it a day, because I believe this was quite the huge load
19:20 Mentee: yup
19:20 MrSergio: experimenting with this is crucial if you want to advance with your mapping tho